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Post by dsjr on Apr 7, 2022 11:27:12 GMT
More for the AudioAddicts forum possibly, but here goes...
I heard these a few years back in a not ideal setting, sitting on the floor across a corner in a largish room and (expensively) Levinson driven. They sounded wonderful and big hearted in an 'intimate' kind of effortless way, a presentation that no smaller speaker can ever give and I stood there with tears of joy in my eyes I remember, as they were playing a favourite and very well recorded Buddy Holly song (Every Day).
Another review had them sat on 12" stands which makes for a large but possible bass-better room match for UK people.
Well, a chap I've been following and who's had many serious modern speakers to test and listen to has done it with these and glad to say, they passed in every way -
I doubt many would get to hear them properly and that's a crying shame. They're around Harbeth 40 price and a more hairshirt equivalent I feel  My beloved ATC 100's even in way-inferior passive form* are a good few grand more expensive...
Here they are below from one of the UK audio agency collectors -
*Not just active vs passive here, the ATC mid driver requires the active phase and level matching adjustments to sing at its best as well as hundreds of Watts ideally, which you can't do properly in any passive version.
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Post by Westie on Apr 7, 2022 13:41:35 GMT
I’m seeing these at 12 Grand a pair. I know I’ve lost touch with prices, but surely the ATCs can’t be more than that? I’d expected Harbeths range to top out at £3k. I’m way out of touch, I guess.
The JBLs sure don’t look like anything has been spent on looks and finish. It seems like a heck of a lot of money for what you get. Maybe there’s stuff on the inside that costs more than I can see?
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Post by dsjr on Apr 7, 2022 17:58:00 GMT
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Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2022 21:13:03 GMT
Large ATC are perfect to piss off the neighbours. ''DSJR TURN IT DOWN!!!!''
Joking.
S.
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Post by Westie on Apr 7, 2022 21:31:41 GMT
Eek! Those Harbeths are about 5 times the max I see in them. The ATCs almost looks bargain. Prices have massively outstripped inflation, house prices, share prices and anything else including energy prices. They must be selling very low volumes for that.
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Post by Westie on Apr 9, 2022 7:47:07 GMT
I know the price of some “fashionable” used kit is now high, and this includes JBl. Nevertheless, there is loads of used kit out there that would give you a high end sound at a really low cost for what you get.
Speaking only for me, I can’t tolerate huge speakers and high volume in a small space. That always means modestly sized speakers and a sound that’s more of an impression than a re-creation. What I’m saying is that I’d need a realistic sized space to have realistically sized music.
So for me, the room is the limiting factor. It’s nice to have decent kit, but I know I will never have the highest fidelity.
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Post by dsjr on Apr 9, 2022 11:19:23 GMT
The retail prices of higher end audio products is way over parts cost.. Speaker cabinets are costing more and more as the wood is often imported (a pal who makes a smallish speaker using birch ply for the cabs is in trouble as said ply comes from Ukraine), not sure where ATC's driver castings come from but they're bloody heavy duty and they wind their own coils etc. Logistics in moving heavy carcasses around is horrendous currently. as for Harbeth, they're compliant to a very strict ISO standard and even a glue spot on the veneer can't be cleaned off apparently - the part has to be scrapped I was told (no idea how strict it is in reality though). The tooling to create the 'radial' cones isn't cheap and no idea if they make their own big bass drivers (they don't make them en masse as JBL do for pro and DIY projects). Yes, I'm making excuses for them, but when you see the ridiculous prices for now inferior Spendor products which have continuously been down graded over the last fifteen years or so using generic bought-in drivers from other models rather than dedicated parts for each model (Spendor's designer jumped ship and went to Harbeth a short while ago), as well as resurrected BBC relics by Graham and Stirling and now resurrected Rogers too (not forgetting the squeaky shrill Falcon LS3/5A), yet selling for ridiculous prices, Harbeth had spectacular success with the anniversary models, so took the decision to introduce the XD models at the prices they're now at. the XD's I've heard are refinements of what went before (the C7-XD a transformation in my opinion) and you know what, they're selling with order books six months ahead (nice work if you can get it!!!). I've not been able to blast the sound out since the mid 90's at home as either herself or the neighbours make comments. The now out of date Harbeth SHL5s cause a bass drone throughout the building which carries next door and blocking the port as I did for a while affects the wrong frequencies. The BC2's show promise and I must get the grilles refurbished. More my budget now, just seen two good reviews on the latest KRK Rokit series. Here's an articulate non ASR test of the 8 G4 done by a mix engineer. overdrivestudios.es/krk-rokit-8-g4-review/Got to get to hear some of these smaller actives that don't suffer 'audiophool' mentalities or profit margins  |
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Post by Westie on Apr 9, 2022 11:55:40 GMT
Of all the high end speakers, I’d say the ATCs have the most justification for the price, as they are fabulously made.
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Post by classicrock on Apr 9, 2022 15:34:15 GMT
There is a guy on Youtube (GR research I think?) who does mods. Took a Harbeth apart and crossover components look pretty basic quality. Check out the component quality of the Buchardt S400 II or even the KLH5. Also the new Mission 770. Cabinets maybe not such nice wood but otherwise Harbeth are pretty basic boxes with mid level component quality at best. How they can sell that 40.1 against the ATC 100 I don't know. The more domestically acceptable SLC50 is I think about £12K. My guess it's the US and far east markets that lap these Harbeths up. I thought the Rogers LS 3/5A demo with matching active sub / stands sounded rather good at Bristol just before the pandemic which surprised me not being a fan of this design. The new smaller Harbeths also sounded better than previous versions I've heard but at a price. There are far more affordable speakers that perform better if you are not concerned with having a badge. £3K is now considered 'budget' price it seems these days to many. I'm told the LS 3/5A and small Harbeth's are ideal for small Hong Kong apartments. People with a lot of money and restricted space buy them. |
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Post by Westie on Apr 9, 2022 16:47:54 GMT
I’ve almost bought SCM10 and SCM20 previously. I’m sure one day I will. Is either any good?
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Post by classicrock on Apr 10, 2022 9:15:43 GMT
I’ve almost bought SCM10 and SCM20 previously. I’m sure one day I will. Is either any good? I've got to say the cabinet sides of my Wharfedales are deader. The drive units on the ATC look very high quality, if only the terminals and cables matched. Latest versions might be better? Don't know how much Danny's mods would actually make as they seem to perform well as standard. |
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Post by dsjr on Apr 10, 2022 13:01:58 GMT
There is a guy on Youtube (GR research I think?) who does mods. Took a Harbeth apart and crossover components look pretty basic quality. Check out the component quality of the Buchardt S400 II or even the KLH5. Also the new Mission 770. Cabinets maybe not such nice wood but otherwise Harbeth are pretty basic boxes with mid level component quality at best. How they can sell that 40.1 against the ATC 100 I don't know. The more domestically acceptable SLC50 is I think about £12K. My guess it's the US and far east markets that lap these Harbeths up. I thought the Rogers LS 3/5A demo with matching active sub / stands sounded rather good at Bristol just before the pandemic which surprised me not being a fan of this design. The new smaller Harbeths also sounded better than previous versions I've heard but at a price. There are far more affordable speakers that perform better if you are not concerned with having a badge. £3K is now considered 'budget' price it seems these days to many. I'm told the LS 3/5A and small Harbeth's are ideal for small Hong Kong apartments. People with a lot of money and restricted space buy them. The GR Research bod is a PERFECT reason not to believe snakeoil salespeople on Youtube (Paul McGowan from PS Audio is worse though as he doesn't really know what he's at according to those that *do* know) who try to fool lay people with semi-science!!! He's there to sell foo components (tube connectors my a*se!) and his upgrades are dubious at best and all about selling kits.
The Harbeth P3 is a very complex box and way over the GR chap's skills to modify as he'd change the performance too much and probably make it worse - he could barely fault the ATC 19v2's and these do have response issues, so make of that what you will - and used to be cheaper than the LS3/5A's in fairly recent times. I baulk when I see the complex crossover, but how do you know the components are basic quality and not as good as a high-profit foo capacitor with equally fooo high end name on them? You're looking in the wrong place sir for any improvements, as it's my opinion that the current XD models with standard components sound at least as good if not better than the anniversary models with poly caps (with Harbeth printed on them too) and silly XBT connectors). Harbeth increased their prices to better compete in the far eastern markets where prestige and price tickets count for everything! I can't say I approve of this, but I've admitted many times how badly I'd have failed as a businessman as you really do have to price goods to meet market demand and needs and Alan was a marketing chap before he bought a failing Harbeth and set about transforming the company and gaining experience in design as he went - whatever we think, he's done very well at it for what was largely a one-man-design-band until he took on extra design engineers including Spendor's long standing designer!!!
I do agree that ATC's three way 'classic' veneered models must cost more in material terms to make and it galls me that many of their larger models are sold in the far east in hobbled passive form (genuine reason why the actives are better - research the mod dome's performance) to audiophools who again, seem to be status enhancing price ticket collectors who use the music to listen to the gear and who collect product reputations, exhibiting the stuff in their 'HiFi Shrines' all laid out meticulously in front of them!
The weakest part of any system is provably the speakers and the weakest part of the speaker is the drive units - in my opinion of course. The only criticism I can have of the JBL possibly being overpriced (a criticism by the ASR faithful) is the Chinese build, as products made there can be so much cheaper to produce.
Oh I don't bloody know  I'm now firmly a grumpy old git now in his mid 60's with variable shit hearing and feeling angry and miserable about it. Hearing test after Easter and I'm effing scared frankly, although I think the house construction and the room play a huge role in my shit mood where audio's concerned right now. |
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Post by dsjr on Apr 10, 2022 13:22:18 GMT
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Post by Westie on Apr 10, 2022 14:46:06 GMT
I can completely get what you mean about house construction and in-room sound affecting your mood. Many of us need music in our lives as a means of release. If it’s not working, neither are we.
I’m getting a better sound now but just can’t listen for long without getting tired. That’s not ten music, it’s just whatever’s wrong with me. I’ve managed 90 minutes awake today after a full nights sleep…….and it’s 3:45.
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Post by dsjr on Apr 10, 2022 20:22:46 GMT
Is there nothing that can be done about it?
If your stereo wasn't doing it, you'd not play it at all I reckon. Was a bit cold in the shade here, but warm and sunny in the open today, so the weather is picking up a bit. Hopefully that'll help your condition.
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My beloved ATC 100's even in way-inferior passive form* are a good few grand more expensive...
I'm now firmly a grumpy old git now in his mid 60's with variable shit hearing and feeling angry and miserable about it. Hearing test after Easter and I'm effing scared frankly, although I think the house construction and the room play a huge role in my shit mood where audio's concerned right now.