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Post by Southall on Jan 13, 2024 22:09:17 GMT
This thread might rub some people the wrong way.
This is just my personal opinion and experience. But as always = Your mileage may vary.
For both new or used speakers. My comfort zone price is something like £150 - £850. So yes, £850 is the max. I mainly like bookshelf types. Some compact floorstanders can be good.
From experience. I have noticed speakers that are priced over £1k is diminishing returns. Especially with small 2-way bookshelf types.
As most of you know I had a recent experience with ProAc Tablette 10 Signature. And sure enough, I didn't like their overly bright and clinical ways to the sound. But come on man, £1,905 is just evil ripoff. And don't fret please, I did NOT purchase the ProAc new, lol.
You live and learn, I guess.
S.
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Post by Westie on Jan 13, 2024 22:21:19 GMT
It would be hard for me to say because I buy used and the speakers vary with age. I’d personally not like to pay over a grand and I’m not sure I ever have. I guess it also depends on the size of your room because big speakers with larger cabinets and drivers will inevitably cost more. That said, the best sound I’ve heard was from Snell Js in a big room, using a Voyd Refrence and Audio Innovations amps. The Snells aren’t massive or expensive.
I have heard much bigger and more expensive speakers at dealers and shows, but never really heard anything that convinced me there was another level.
Just supposing I had a big room and plenty cash, there aren’t many speakers I’d look at. Spica Angelus, Snell As and Impulse H2 would be of interest. So would another pair of MMDe Capos, but so too would be just keeping the Snells because I’d never failed to enjoy them and they really do produce a big sound in a big room
I do agree with you about small speakers. The “premium priced” ones are just a con.
I think that’s the best stab I could make at answering.
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Post by André on Jan 13, 2024 22:43:17 GMT
OO No high price speakers have always been a waste of money 2nd hand with me
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Post by Westie on Jan 14, 2024 8:47:46 GMT
I really don’t understand why so many people buy new speakers. You can usually get mint examples of anything if you are prepared to wait. Savings can be huge too, because they aren’t easy to ship.
If you are 100% certain they will be yours for life, then maybe there’s some justification, but not many people stick to one pair. Most fold can’t even stick to one partner for life these days.
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Post by dsjr on Jan 14, 2024 9:50:46 GMT
Well, I'm also going to risk rubbing some up the right way...
There are some great smallish speakers apparently for under a grand the pair, active too in many cases so no amps needed, but you're NEVER going to hear them in dealers (who take 40 - 50% of the purchase price these days, such are their margins). Proper big speakers DO cost more to make, ship out and so on, but certain UK companies, even two I admire and one I love still, seem to be either milking the market for what they'll pay, or merely surviving and both selling to lucrative far eastern lucrative sales of their incredibly heavy and costly to ship 'monitors' with fancy shiny wood finishes...
I never was good at costing out products fairly for a reasonable profit and I'd argue that one cannot simply look at parts costs alone. China still has cheap labour, but the EU and UK don't and so on and so on... But yeah, some companies are having a laugh and peeps still buy into it...
As westie says, loads of good used speakers out there if you choose right, but many classic models will need restoration of cone surrounds and maybe a crossover refurb too as electrolytic caps can go off.
I suppose for new speakers, we do have a lot to thank China for, as many speaker parts can be got by makers at lower prices.
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Post by André on Jan 14, 2024 12:16:45 GMT
If you have a vast knowledge of what was good in the past you can pick up something cheap cos a lot of them will be under the radar now. A lot of people don't like up to date designs.
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Post by classicrock on Jan 14, 2024 12:35:44 GMT
Most of the cost differences are due to cabinets. Generally these days more expensive have heavier deader cabinets with multi layer materials. Rega more or less stopped doing speakers due to UK cabinet making costs. Their new more affordable models are using resin based cabinets Don't look so good but I've yet to hear them. For UK built speakers I don't want to see Chinese drivers. I don't think ATC SCM 40 or Fyne Classic VIII are excessively overpriced at £4-£4.5K but the new Wharfedale Dovedales with Chinese drivers seem to be. However I think you might be better spending £4K on the source and £1K on speakers. Some really good sounding product at that price that scales up with better source and amplifiers. The BBC models Dave is probably alluding to do seem expensive and that is not limited to one particular brand. Not heard the Proac Tablette 10 but I think the £3K ProAc Response D2R sounded great in the Michell room at last years Bristol show. Not losing out much to their expensive floor standers. In my view most used speakers I see listed need some to a lot of work at least cosmetically.
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Post by André on Jan 14, 2024 12:45:06 GMT
Thing is the then new material of choice was the dreadful MDF, even though Chipboard used to be cost effective but now MDF has gone through the roof. Re: Tiny modern speaker, the only thing i see that has going for them is you can get loads of bass from such a small cabinet even though its not real Bass  |
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Post by dsjr on Jan 14, 2024 13:55:17 GMT
MDF isn't as lossy as chipboard could be I found, but Harbeth use a thin wall MDF which is a lot more consistent (less air holes/voids) than the birch play the BeeBeeCee models used. Linn found the complex Isobarik boxes easier to make with MDF shells (you should see the internals being put together - not a pretty sight). The Harbeths came as an offer I couldn't refuse. Even at a typical £1500 price for a good-condition pair like mine, I'd not go there. New ones (similar parts cost I'm certain) are now five grand the pair in cherry and look very unimpressive internally. Retro new doesn't sell in the UK I'm told. The Wharfedale Linton Heritage is a good price including solid stands (under £1500) yet has an excellent all round performance. Had this been a Spendor and with UK dealer margins, it'd be five grand the pair... I can't get to hear any as I'd like to see if having a dedicated upper mid driver would help my hearing. probably, the JBL huge waveguide/horn tweeters on their models these days would also be good but I worry the tone might be too 'jangly' for my taste... Actually, I'm amazed that nobody here has tried the JBL 306 actives - more bass extension than the 305 and not as 'ott' as the 308... I've seen used sets for under £400pr and new they're not so different.. Priced each - www.thomann.de/gb/jbl_306p_mkii.htm |
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Post by André on Jan 14, 2024 15:26:24 GMT
Plywood is out of the question because its too expensive these days. MDF is dreadful stuff imho, it will blow straight up if moisture gets in the end no matter if its standard or the green moisture proof stuff, Chipboard is more forgiving. Fine grade Chipboard, not cheap chipboard i find is better. People play about all the time with all sorts of damping materials, but on a small speaker its all a waste of time & energy imho cos at the end of the day the smell of Placebo effect is in the air with it. Its common sense to heavily brace a cabinet of size. However im moving onto different things its cost of MDF these days i was pointing out compared to chipboard.
P.A Cabinets are Chipboard braced, What makes a stereo system so special it requires something more?
tbh i cannot stand *RETRO* i literally sigh when i see it & it's not just Hi-Fi, it's instruments, Clothes, Cars etc
Can i just say people get RETRO & VINTAGE mixed up. Vintage is a genuine item from the period, Retro is something that made to to resemble something of a certain period.
If people have to buy RETRO that means they wants something to look at more than anything, it also i suppose means modern lack of design is not their cuppa tea, they want it both ways, old copy of something with a modern crap sounding item lol. . I need something to look at & sound good but i also need a genuine item not a lookalike, Just not the same thing at all.
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Post by classicrock on Jan 14, 2024 18:27:38 GMT
The better speakers are using HDF rather than MDF these days. Obviously this pushes up cost. There is an obsession with Retro speakers on Hoffman forum. Endless thread on Lintons as well as anything in a boring retro box. Some speakers do have new technology but not pretending to be a recreation of an old design while having a vintage vibe. Honestly Harbeth are pretty simple MDF with run of the mill components apart from their own mid range driver. It's hard to drum up interest with some audio people if a speaker isn't a copy of something 50 years old.
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Post by dsjr on Jan 14, 2024 18:36:07 GMT
The better speakers are using HDF rather than MDF these days. Obviously this pushes up cost. There is an obsession with Retro speakers on Hoffman forum. Endless thread on Lintons as well as anything in a boring retro box. Some speakers do have new technology but not pretending to be a recreation of an old design while having a vintage vibe. Honestly Harbeth are pretty simple MDF with run of the mill components apart from their own mid range driver. It's hard to drum up interest with some audio people if a speaker isn't a copy of something 50 years old. But that 'Radial' cone is something special it seems - stiff but seemingly lacking resonances further up which ALWAYS get in the way no matter the crossover slops and so on and so on. Sure the rest of it is straight out of the 70's and dispersion/directivity is the thing that seems to date the brand most in technical terms. It'll be interesting to see what their forthcoming dsp active models will do, but they'll be ATC active prices I'm certain...
The box material isn't so important, as I believe it's how it's used that's the issue. Many cheaper smaller speakers suffer from leaky ports, leaking midrange which blurs what the mid driver is doing, fecking up the end result. Just sealing up the box then causes other issues it seems (the US buyers LOVE their bass...).
The only modern (expensive - ish) box I'm interested in is the ES14N, where the side walls were experimented on for the best compromise, the drivers are well optimised together and the conventional crossover not that complex. My pal has some for dem but I've not been able to visit for a good while so falling well behind! I like Karl-Heinz Fink's attitude too, when he was pounced on by the 'ASR Police' who actually know nothing about speakers despite their 'little more than six months' experience (this attitude is all over the larger audio forums and best ignored really).
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