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Post by Westie on Jan 23, 2024 0:00:44 GMT
They almost always sound awful to me and I’ve never lived happily with narrow baffled speakers. My ears tell me they are “wrong” and I end up speculating why. FWIW here are my thoughts.
1. Tiny drivers in a larger cabinet don’t work, especially when doubled-up. Nor do rear-firing ports in most cases.
2. The drivers end up too close to the floor and it sounds un-natural.
3. I’m wondering if the narrow baffle actually allows reflected sound to get mixed in with the driver sound? It’s certainly feasible.
4. The footprint of these things often means they are unstable .
5. Cabinets are often deeper to create volume. This affects reflected sound internally, adding to the time-delay of any reflections and screwing with the sound.
To me, there are reasons why the best speakers sound the way they do.
1. They are often taller, so the drivers sit higher. Voices don’t come from the hip and musicians are usually on a stage.
2. Wider baffles act as I speculate above , and block rear reflections.
3. Larger drivers avoid paired-up 4 inch jobbies and rear ports.
4. A bigger footprint and better construction to go with the size.
5. No need to have stupidly deep cabinets in relation to their width.
All thoughts welcome. At the end of the day, we all like what we like.
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Post by André on Jan 23, 2024 11:08:15 GMT
I like the wide x shallow depth ie: KEF 104/HEYBROOK 'HB1'/MORDAUNT SHORT 'PAEGEANT'/SNELL/JPW etc
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Post by dsjr on Jan 23, 2024 15:00:58 GMT
Not sure you can make total generalisations, but these days, a speaker designer MUST sort out driver phase relationships and dispersion patterns (always a compromise in passive crossovers but it can be done acceptably I gather.'
Slim boxes can act as organ pipes 'tuned' to one frequency so making the bass really odd. Small bass drivers working too hard causes much bass distortion and modulation of the midrange too, but that also happens in smaller stand mounts too (admittedly passive stand mounts don't do deep bass much below 60Hz)
These days, tweeters are set far too high to stand out in a dem room full of elderly customers (you think I'm wrong?) and internationally, B&W and PMC are the pits for this (B&W is one of or actually THE largest speaker company in the world for commercial products rather than drive units and I think Bose is up there too...)...
The best slim standmounts I've heard in recent times were the Dynaudio Focus 50 and the ATC 40A. Different balance but the Focus 50 was like a window into the venue on a suitable track.
Looks aside, I do need to hear the Linton Heritage three way. Designed and voiced by Peter Comeau I gather, they're generally hugely well thought of, but the UK market's not as into vintage as other markets and they don't really sell here.
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Post by Westie on Jan 23, 2024 17:08:50 GMT
I must admit I’d like to hear those Wharfedales too. I’m expecting them to be lacking in air and detail but that’s just my expectation based on their looks. They could be great.
One of the “worst” slim floorstanders for me were Linn Kabers. I so wanted to love them because they are really solidly built and I just like their looks. Sadly they are screechy and shit in to my ears. I’ve heard them active too and it didn’t help.
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Post by Westie on Jan 23, 2024 17:21:31 GMT
A bit of a random and “out of place “ question Dave, but did you like the Intek amp? I must admit I really did like it with Kans. I never used it with anything else but I loved that pairing with vinyl and an MC cartridge. I am sure I had an LP12/Ekos/OC9 at the time and late Kan Mk1s.
Edit: I’m actually wrong. I ran that Intek with several pairs of Kans and 3 or 4 pairs of Saras. It was great with all of them. The only reason I sold it was finances. I was studying for a good few years and I needed the case, so I got out of hifi for about 6 years. I was so busy reading and learning, I didn’t miss the music. That said, in my first week at work after university I bought a brand new turntable.
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Post by Westie on Jan 23, 2024 17:27:38 GMT
I like the wide x shallow depth ie: KEF 104/HEYBROOK 'HB1'/MORDAUNT SHORT 'PAEGEANT'/SNELL/JPW etc Me too. There seems to be a “timing” thing going on with them. It’s just so “right” to me. I don’t know how else to describe it. |
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Post by dsjr on Jan 23, 2024 17:40:13 GMT
EVERY Intek we ever sounded constricted and GRAINY!!! One was so bad we sent it back for exchange (they did).
Apparently (and many LK280's suffered this as well as the Pretek/Powertek), there was distortion generated in the input side to the power amp which was then amplified through the stages to the output.
Now, my current experiences of the LK280/SPARK here makes me wonder if it was an additive thing. The K20 speaker cable was dull for some reason and we mercifully replaced it when Linn removed their account in the dealer purge in the early 90's (a story in itself). I had a few LK280's at home, one for several months and couldn't get rid of the grain* (a Nakamichi CA7/PA5mk2 which replaced it was in a different realm back then I remember). This one here today with 2.5mm install cable is absolutely fine in a 'quietly controlled' kind of way... The Lk100 was similar, but not the Klout (which went through a couple of tweaks in its life) or LK85 or 140. No idea I'm afraid - just reciting memories..
Thinking about it, I'd try a Pretek again, but not the Powertek or Intek itself.
*Another thought, Linn's amps of that era were hobbled by the LK1 which works fine with say, a Quad 405-2 and I suspect a UK Audiolab 8000PX/MX style of amp. Use the LK1 with these early Linn amps and everything closes up. I remember the Kairn opened things up (especially with brilliant supply). My own Lk1 and 280/Spark just don't 'sound' right to me, but are fine independently.
Sorry, a far too convoluted response to a simple question... It's times like this I wish I still worked in a dem room, able to compare stuff.
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Post by André on Jan 23, 2024 17:44:33 GMT
You can crown me if you want but why do people entertain the majority of brit amps from that era, Ive had quite a few & never been that happy with them or is it a Enthusiast snob thing? Ill get mi coat  |
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Post by Westie on Jan 23, 2024 18:10:10 GMT
Haha I have a feeling it might be horses for courses in that it’s a Linn amp driving Linn speakers. I’d imagine it was made using both of these speakers. To this day I don’t think I’ve heard one with any ther make of speaker. Unless my memory has more holes lol.
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Post by Westie on Jan 23, 2024 18:14:56 GMT
I did always like NVA and Farlowe Exposure amps of that era, and I found both of them were good beyond The Flat Earth kit.
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Post by dsjr on Jan 24, 2024 18:39:18 GMT
I loathed Kabers, especially aktiv ones as even with three Klouts, the hf spat viciously (I've seen responses of many Linn speakers from that era and they all suffer a deep suckout/scoop in the presence region followed by a nassssty peak above. I did fit a pair of rib-fronted tweeters to a pair driven by a Majik integrated (Bi wired I recall) and I was stunned to discover that *this* pair sounded as sweet as a nut and that was the only pair I ever heard that 'sounded' this way.. Andr'e, we were conditioned to love Naim, or at least my cohorts were. The A60 early on was a musical but floppy-bassed thing, okay with smaller speakers like Hb1's and so on, but other amps wanted to copy Naim and well, you know my vibes on that score. Into easy loads of the time, the 33/303 was delightful and still is (the 33 is very misunderstood and it's a shame that Dada in the Netherlands may have gone now although the Oz version still exists) but the amps up to the 606 didn't like low impedance loads which are now commonplace and not sure even the forum-liked 306 has the juice for this load despite the updated circuit. By the time Quad woke up, it was too late and the 77 remote issues caused them to sell up I remember. UK Audiolab was great if you used sensible cabling and not the audiophool high profit junk we sold in Linn-Naim dealers. The black cased later ones followed by the PX and MX amps, S integrated and Q preamp were really good I remember. AVI was another properly designed goodie, the amps not needing to 'warm up' and all the other nonsense we were conditioned to and the 'sound' changed with the music fed them. Forget the polarising LOUD mouthpiece director, the products themselves really were excellent. Got to say Linn changed. The preamps after the Lk1 opened up the tone beautifully and with the LK85, 140 and mid series onwards Klout, th epower amps were good too, the 85 a bit weak and best used to bi-amp a Majik or similar... I think the main issue for stylish slim towers is the organ pipe bass tuning and maybe dispersion issues, this latter being worked hard on increasingly as good designers find ways of making it work. Revel, which is hopelessly under-marketed worldwide now by Harman (no change under Samsung ownership yet), do have some superb tower types but they're barely imported and unknown here because of it. They eat alive the likes of PMC and especially B&W which seemed to abandon good performance in preference for showroom appeal to deaf elderly audiophiles sadly  Spendor have lost it along with their now ex designer (who found it an uphill struggle and did as he was told) and make their models up from a shared parts bin now I gather. I had a VERY unfair downer on Farlowe era Exposure but it was the preamp noise and so on which let them down. The power amps were warm hearted and actually 'truthful' I now feel, as the once preferred Naim CB era amps were hard toned and drifted off after a year or two. One thing I wish I knew then what I know now! There's one active speaker itch I'd really like to try and that'#s the Beolab 6000 columns. The bass rolls off but gently and they're BRILLIANT in corners. The little main drivers may have surround issues, but I'd love to see today if I could live with a pair now high volumes are out of the question. Hopefully good ones are £3 - 400pr and they have RCA sockets on, making them easy to integrate with a non B&O preamp... |
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Post by Westie on Jan 24, 2024 19:15:15 GMT
Your description of the Kaber sound matches mine completely. I really don’t know how anyone thought they were in a fit state to put to market. I’ve heard Linn speakers with and without the “bull bar” tweeters and they do improve things.
I’m not doubting your experience for one minute, but I’ve never heard any noise from exposure preamps. Could it be mains dependent maybe? Even with MC I’ve always found them very quiet. I always liked the very earliest Exposures the best. The plum coloured 3 and 4, the latter wit its use frame transformer were easily the best. I always preferred the un-regulated iterations. Regulation stopsmamps from breathing to my ears and it also kills detail
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Post by dsjr on Jan 25, 2024 13:33:16 GMT
Your description of the Kaber sound matches mine completely. I really don’t know how anyone thought they were in a fit state to put to market. I’ve heard Linn speakers with and without the “bull bar” tweeters and they do improve things. I’m not doubting your experience for one minute, but I’ve never heard any noise from exposure preamps. Could it be mains dependent maybe? Even with MC I’ve always found them very quiet. I always liked the very earliest Exposures the best. The plum coloured 3 and 4, the latter wit its use frame transformer were easily the best. I always preferred the un-regulated iterations. Regulation stopsmamps from breathing to my ears and it also kills detail The Exposure thing is perhaps where subjective 'it's good enough' gives way to what's actually going on (I bekieve that so much subjectivist audio gear is 'good enough' but not better than that, Rega being a prime example these days and Hegel too it appears, only Hegel is rather expensive...). I mean, I found the Naim MC boards incredibly hissy but most didn't, the LK1 MC input rather quieter at the time (I doubt I'd be able to tell the difference now for reasons you know). Maybe today, the Exposure preamps used on th eline inpiuts would be fine, so forgive now forty year old memories here using a vinyl source. Colloms et al loved the ARC preamps, claiming that a Koetsu or similar could go dtraight into the MM stage without step-up. Well I tried it on two or three ARC preamps including my own SP14 and the hiss was clearly audible to me (ok, eSSSSS 14's nearfield) and I didn't like winding the wick almost to maximum. The fact that the noise from the system wasn't much different to the vinyl's own surface noise kind-of added to it. Times change and I can't hear it now unless severe, so what the eff...
I can't remember the power amp I heard in an enjoyable afternoon once. It may well have been the IV (1983 ish?). Thing is now for me, a Quad 606mk2 on power amp would do that and more (they really are most agreeable and have plenty of 4 ohm power as well  ) and I suspect cheaper as they don't carry the cachet of early Exposure and Naim amps. I LOVED my bolt-up 250 which sounded nothing remotely like the CB ones (Julian V agreed and demonstrated the fact when three bolt-up 250's in a 'Brik active system had to go back for re-setting up due to thermal issues with two of them and we compared the three and then a CB 250).
Is it ok to talk like this, as I don't want to upset the cart again? these memories are so effin' old now and few people give a stuff anyway...
I can't talk about regulation as it apparently helps in some situations, but not in others, as the supply can sag on prolonged music signals, reducing power. I have a few tales regarding that but not now Maybe the amp inpiut circuit needs regulating to stop the output stage modulating it, but I'm sure there's ways and means around that. |
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Post by classicrock on Jan 25, 2024 19:38:29 GMT
I have heard small floor standers with multiple tiny drivers and never liked the sound. Larger towers that accommodate 6.5 inch or bigger drivers are another thing. Tweeters to me are preferable near to ear height rather than knee height.
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Post by Westie on Jan 25, 2024 20:13:20 GMT
I’m enjoying reading your posts Dave. It always fascinates me that we sometimes hear the same things and other times we hear opposites. I didn’t hear a lot of noise from Naim phono boards either. I did from my NVA MC stage though.
Like you, I loved the bolt down 250. I’ve had a couple and I have no idea what possessed me in selling them. But then I also loved my Chrome Bumper 250s even though their sound was very different. I loved the 160 too.
I have only heard a 606 with Quad 34 and 44, so I’m probably missing most of their true quality. Loads of folk like the baby 306 too and I think both are lovely things to own.
I guess regulation will depend on how well it’s done. I watched a great video from PS audio on the subject quite recently and he explained why they don’t do it. Might be worth a watch if you can find it.
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Spendor have lost it along with their now ex designer (who found it an uphill struggle and did as he was told) and make their models up from a shared parts bin now I gather.
) and I suspect cheaper as they don't carry the cachet of early Exposure and Naim amps. I LOVED my bolt-up 250 which sounded nothing remotely like the CB ones (Julian V agreed and demonstrated the fact when three bolt-up 250's in a 'Brik active system had to go back for re-setting up due to thermal issues with two of them and we compared the three and then a CB 250).