|
Post by dsjr on Apr 16, 2022 10:45:07 GMT
The people who mostly bought 753's from us had 20 - 24' by 12' or so rooms, so the 753's could be placed a hands breadth from the back wall and listening 3 - 4m away. The twin bass and twin bass-mids had a comb-filtering effect which room reflections smothered when sitting further away (Isobariks were similar and you needed some space for them to 'blend' properly in-room). That tweeter was an art-form in itself with a waspy disssstinctive sound all its own. We sold them with naim and Cyrus amps usually, and one chap thrashed the hell (into harshness) an AVI S2000 integrated amp I remember. Interesting how the A400 was based on a full feature model which had all the 'extras' removed with apparently no change in performance (reportedly) and the price increased accordingly to 'audiophile interest' levels. I had extreme sounds with ones I demmed, either very good or very bad, but looking back, the Linn K20 speaker cables we used had a lot to answer for I now feel
|
|
|
Post by Westie on Apr 16, 2022 13:09:11 GMT
Well, you remember my vibes on the 752. I remember discussing it on launch with Robin (I wonder if he helped or even designed it as he knew a lot about it...). The Aerogel bass driver has a heavy cone apparently and the 752 box volume was the largest the driver could usefully accommodate I was told. The heavy cone and large porty box did tend for it to boom in some situations. In our 15' x 11' dem room (speakers on the 11' wall), they boomed and th ebass was nowhere near as tactile as the 753 for example. So, pull 'em out from the wall to sort the bass a bit and the tweeter than over-exposes itself (oo missus) and fizzles and spits as that tweeter always did *when new.* Maybe a totally different room and sitting further away helped, but we didn't find it an easy product to sell (753's were a doddle as long as you could get 4m or so away from them to allow the drivers to blend better). Now, my ongoing problem is that these memories are decades old and speakers, especially tweeters, can and do age. personal experience was Rogers LS7T's which no longer spat viciously (they sounded quite sweet) and some well loved B&W 601's which had all but lost their splatter up top (the V2's onwards replaced said splatter with a vicious sibilant ssspike which doesn't mellow I believe as the crossover is designed/hobbled to do this). Anyway, all old stuff now. The original final version ES14 could sound wonderful if the tweeter didn't upset and I still wonder if the basic cone and dome wasn't bought from Celestion (I'll never know, but the coil assemblies were Chinese made). the driver chassis was th emost expensive part and Robin told me the complete driver ex works was five times the cost of the Naim SBL mk1 driver that M-S made for them (no idea who made the mk2 unit nor for how much). P.S. You know Westie, they're a bloody faff and you have to look at third party foam grille suppliers etc as well as invest (heavily) in the gasket set, but a pair of SBL mk2's always sounded better outside of a Naim system (in passive form) and may work well in your room layout firing down the length. Prices can be fairly reasonable too (I've been tempted on and off, especially be a walnut pair which came up locally) but my prejudices against the company and their rip-off price policies prevents me still... Hmmm…..SBLs…… I always liked them and having rebuilt Malcolm Stewards old ones, I’m not daunted by the faffing they need. Might watch out for a local pair. Like you, I think they are better away from Naim amps.
|
|
|
Post by Westie on Apr 16, 2022 13:10:37 GMT
I would eat money on the low tweeter position being an impediment. But then I always seem to need speakers a bit higher up than most.
|
|
|
Post by dsjr on Apr 16, 2022 14:22:03 GMT
I think it depends where the best axis is - some speakers prefer you to be slightly below the tweeter (hence Mission's upside down config which may have been accidental at first when the 700's were developed - there was a rumour...). SBL's tilted the drivers but I'd respectfully suggest this was a styling clue more than anything else (the Snell Type C did it - I liked those I remember) www.hifi-classic.net/review/snell-type-c-i-160.htmlThere's a danger setting the tweeter below the bass driver that the image is too low down and severe cancellations can occur (right where my ears are defective now - at crossover). the Keilidh was a classic one, sounding best if you sat on the floor at tweeter level. the Ninka was a bit taller and worked better for it I felt and sounded almost as good in passive form as the Keilidh did in active mode.... Them were(n't) the days.....
|
|
|
Post by Westie on Apr 16, 2022 15:01:18 GMT
It’s that image height I love in speakers. And it’s also why I can’t stand things like Royd Minstrels. Knee high singers are a real downer for me.
|
|
|
Post by Westie on May 22, 2022 11:08:42 GMT
I read today that these will be £3800! Pics of them look horrible too.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 22, 2022 11:20:25 GMT
I read today that these will be £3800! Pics of them look horrible too. No speaker is worth that much
|
|
|
Post by dsjr on May 22, 2022 14:09:58 GMT
I read today that these will be £3800! Pics of them look horrible too. HOW MUCH? Effin' 'ell
Well if you must have a legacy 'brand name based' passive speaker that size and price, I'd add the Harbeth C7-XD (so much better balanced than the phat toned ES3 bloat box which preceded it) or my wife's favourite ATC 20SL Classics which at least give you OTT heavily built drivers hand made at the factory (I've seen the bass units in various forms of assembly and they really are a labour of love to me). My choice at that price? If herself didn't mind the looks (yeah right), I'd have to consider the pro option of Neumann KH310's! (I know, they're not pretty, even with the grilles, but the 'sound' is great reportedly and you don't need an external amp for them either!). Several hundred quid less than the new Es14 AND INCLUDING proven and reliable active amps built in, so a no brainer if only the sheep would do some research...
What would *proper* ES14's sell for today? I remember the retail price at around a grand plus stands by 1999 after M-S got hold of them and made them profitable (Robin never made much out of them, but I gather he wasn't that short of a bob or two) and dealer margin was around 40% or maybe slightly more if you paid promptly. Today it works out at around £1550 plus say a couple of hundred for the box frame stands they did (which also perfectly fit the ATC 20 Classic styled model). I bet the drivers Robin designed are better made (by hand) as well, so someone at the new concern is 'avin' a laff frankly
P.S. I doubt they'd sell many in the UK, but the international 'retro market' is in full swing
|
|
|
Post by Westie on May 22, 2022 14:17:21 GMT
I’m having to use my wife’s iPad til I get back as mine has conked out. Once I get sorted, I will post a pic. They look nothing like the old ones. A real disappointment and simply as “ash in” on the name.
|
|
|
Post by Westie on May 22, 2022 14:22:12 GMT
|
|
|
Post by Westie on May 22, 2022 14:23:23 GMT
I think they are ugly.
|
|
|
Post by dsjr on May 22, 2022 14:38:56 GMT
That's not what I initially saw pictured. I've seen that shape before in other speakers. I'd have expected solid walnut sides as Sonus Faber used to do for that price personally... The more modern tweeter front plate waveguide might be the only redeeming feature and without checking, I doubt the main driver is wide open as the originals were - it took some proper maths calculations in Robin's head to work it out properly in the days when computers did very little and cost a fortune... he prided himself and showed me) how the bass units were all identical with next to no deviation...
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 22, 2022 16:07:15 GMT
That's not what I initially saw pictured. I've seen that shape before in other speakers. I'd have expected solid walnut sides as Sonus Faber used to do for that price personally... The more modern tweeter front plate waveguide might be the only redeeming feature and without checking, I doubt the main driver is wide open as the originals were - it took some proper maths calculations in Robin's head to work it out properly in the days when computers did very little and cost a fortune... he prided himself and showed me) how the bass units were all identical with next to no deviation... Aye something like RUARK 'EQUINOX'
|
|
|
Post by Westie on May 22, 2022 16:21:26 GMT
That's not what I initially saw pictured. I've seen that shape before in other speakers. I'd have expected solid walnut sides as Sonus Faber used to do for that price personally... The more modern tweeter front plate waveguide might be the only redeeming feature and without checking, I doubt the main driver is wide open as the originals were - it took some proper maths calculations in Robin's head to work it out properly in the days when computers did very little and cost a fortune... he prided himself and showed me) how the bass units were all identical with next to no deviation... Aye something like RUARK 'EQUINOX' Yep, that’s it!
|
|
|
Post by dsjr on May 26, 2022 19:02:08 GMT
|
|