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Post by Westie on Apr 23, 2020 18:51:44 GMT
I must admit to a soft spot for the Linn. Everyone listed after them in the 70s and 80s. Well built too. Here’s a starter of an early LP12/Grace
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Post by Westie on Apr 23, 2020 19:39:01 GMT
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Post by dsjr on Apr 23, 2020 20:01:12 GMT
I've been very fortunate to work on all manner of LP12's and recently, have been forced to reconsider how the thing sounded forty plus years ago before the Ittok appeared. Be warned if considering an old one. Old plinths can part at the seams, non-screwed mounting blocks before 1982 can work loose with dire sonic consequences, main bearings can be excellent still, but some are knackered now and mid 80's examples may have missed a non-official recall. The guru at Cymbiosis won't touch certain bearings for this very reason. The spot welded sub-chassis with plywood arm-board can work well with a Mission 774 or Hadcock (and may also work well with a Grace 707, but not the way we fitted them at the time), but sounds dire with an ittok and other massy types. Motors tend to last well depending on the thrust components fitted but Valhalla boards DON'T. Years of 24/7 running destroys the caps and not all can be successfully serviced. In fact, the original simple supply plus ferrites can 'sound' better than a Valhalla kit to some. At least the two speed Hercules board can be drop-fitted in, but the motor is still fully powered and vibration isn't reduced. Oh, and setup of older examples varies hugely, no two older decks set up the same (better after 1995 or thereabouts) and dressing tonearm cables is as much a black art as it always was!
The Ittok can be a well performing tonearm, but it effed up most examples of the LP12 badly at the time, totally effing the bass I now realise and conformed by a comparison with master tape at Linn themselves. After that eventful evening, Linn worked bloody hard on sorting the structure of the thing and current ones are serious vinyl spinners again but at frightening costs.
Anyway, decent examples over the years can make LP's sound enjoyable and entertaining. Course you can get better, but better ain't always 'nicer to listen to' so each to their own.
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Post by Westie on Apr 23, 2020 20:24:36 GMT
I’d still love to hear an LP12/Aro , LP12/Misison 774 and LP12/Grace 707. My LP12/Ekos was my best.
I didn’t compare directly but I fiound the Hercules to be more musical than mk1 Lingo. I have a mate that hated the Cirkus upgrade. Not sure I’ve ever heard It.
I really envy you getting to play with these decks again, especially getting to hear the newer stuff.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2020 21:13:05 GMT
I must admit to a soft spot for the Linn. Everyone listed after them in the 70s and 80s. Well built too. Here’s a starter of an early LP12/Grace That is the 'LP-12' i would only ever entertain. Sounded great with the Grace 'G-707'. I used to have a rare Black 'G-707' with 'F-9' Cart. I was never a Flat Earth guy i just like the Deck/Combo at the time.
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Post by Westie on Apr 24, 2020 21:16:38 GMT
I must admit to a soft spot for the Linn. Everyone listed after them in the 70s and 80s. Well built too. Here’s a starter of an early LP12/Grace That is the 'LP-12' i would only ever entertain. Sounded great with the Grace 'G-707'. I used to have a rare Black 'G-707' with 'F-9' Cart. I was never a Flat Earth guy i just like the Deck/Combo at the time. Back when I was 21, I was offered an LP12/Grace for £150. I turned it down because it didn’t have a Valhalla and an Ittok. That skinny arm with the old fashioned headshell just had to be crap....Doh! I worked in Richer Sounds at the time, so of course I was an “expert” in all things hifi lol.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2020 21:24:55 GMT
You live & learn, Shame a lot never learn. Pretty much all Grace arms were great IMHO.
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Post by Westie on Apr 24, 2020 22:41:18 GMT
You live & learn, Shame a lot never learn. Pretty much all Grace arms were great IMHO. Hopefully I will get another chance to hear one. You put me onto the Mayware Formula IV. That was a great steer. I fucking loved that arm.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2020 4:45:57 GMT
Aye the last versions of the Mayware was great, early ones had a flimsy Head shell in comparison.
If people don't like the plastic head shell on the 'G-707' they could have easily opted for a 'G-727'..Pretty much like a 'G-707' but with a plug in head shell.
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Post by Westie on Apr 25, 2020 9:16:58 GMT
Mine was a late one. I even used it with a DL-103R which everyone said would sound shite. It didn’t, the sliding weight to adjust mass was a genius idea which made the arm adaptable.
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Post by dsjr on Apr 25, 2020 10:22:55 GMT
I have a good G707 here but sad to say, outside of an early LP12 pre glued sub chassis and laminated armboard, it screams too much in my experience. Sounded great with an ADC XLM/ZLM style cartridge as well as the ubiquitous Grace F9 MM's and Supex 900E MC, but the resonant low mass design and VERY frail exit cable (only around seven very fine strands in the + wiring in the cable which can easily break) makes it little better than an 'Improved fixed head' SME 3009 to be brutally honest.
I sold and set up countless Maywares in my time and forty years or more ago, a Sonus Blue worked beautifully in it, but I can't get enthusiastic about it today. I do appreciate that Andr'e has had much better results in his projects (hope you're keeping well and safe sir!).
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2020 15:23:57 GMT
Im ok Dave thanks. Had a bit of a Hi-Fi nervous break down last week & was gonna dump Hi-Fi for ever but backed out of selling up.. Certain things i have to get right with standard gear, If it does not go my way i have tantrums
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Post by dsjr on Apr 25, 2020 17:36:43 GMT
Westie and I have chatted about this and from personal crap here, PLEASE try not to kick stuff out on a knee-jerk! I've been doing some (for me) deep thinking about gear I've owned, loved and sold, usually for financial reasons and one notable pair of active speakers I wish i could have kept, sold for love, marriage and a total subsequent life change... need I say more I've NEVER had such good sounds at home since and I'm pissed about it now. I'd like to have kept my Revox plus master tape copies, but CD's of the material I had on tape sounded better (less grainy) and despite the looks, the thing would just be a dust collecting ornament now. I look at my vinyl players and nearly weep over the loss of the Notts Analogue deck I once loved. In recent times I've grown to hankering after an LP12 deck cobbled together out of traded in parts just for old time's sake - I have a reasonable 1982 screwed-block plinth, so that's a start I think I know enough about the sodding things now to be able to get acceptable sounds from such a cobble if I get the arm right Having said that, the precise pitch stability of a serious idler model (301, 401, Lenco) is highly tempting as long as colouration, noise and feedback related low level shit doesn't get in the way... A shame it seems that Tiger Paw are no more. The top plate worked with typical plinths of any age and the magnetic bearing aid which reduces the load on the bearing point by 75% or so was also a good idea imo. The Javelin tonearm was a delight, being easier to handle with less wobble than an ARO and far, FAR better to my ears than a current £1600 or so Akito which sounds as grey and grainy as ever to me.. Hey Ho...
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2020 17:40:49 GMT
Dave, What system are you using now?
S.
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Post by Westie on Apr 25, 2020 18:40:25 GMT
Westie and I have chatted about this and from personal crap here, PLEASE try not to kick stuff out on a knee-jerk! I've been doing some (for me) deep thinking about gear I've owned, loved and sold, usually for financial reasons and one notable pair of active speakers I wish i could have kept, sold for love, marriage and a total subsequent life change... need I say more I've NEVER had such good sounds at home since and I'm pissed about it now. I'd like to have kept my Revox plus master tape copies, but CD's of the material I had on tape sounded better (less grainy) and despite the looks, the thing would just be a dust collecting ornament now. I look at my vinyl players and nearly weep over the loss of the Notts Analogue deck I once loved. In recent times I've grown to hankering after an LP12 deck cobbled together out of traded in parts just for old time's sake - I have a reasonable 1982 screwed-block plinth, so that's a start I think I know enough about the sodding things now to be able to get acceptable sounds from such a cobble if I get the arm right Having said that, the precise pitch stability of a serious idler model (301, 401, Lenco) is highly tempting as long as colouration, noise and feedback related low level shit doesn't get in the way... A shame it seems that Tiger Paw are no more. The top plate worked with typical plinths of any age and the magnetic bearing aid which reduces the load on the bearing point by 75% or so was also a good idea imo. The Javelin tonearm was a delight, being easier to handle with less wobble than an ARO and far, FAR better to my ears than a current £1600 or so Akito which sounds as grey and grainy as ever to me.. Hey Ho... Dave makes a lot of sense. Knee jerk is pretty much the way I’ve steered my hifi journey. It’s been costly in terms of time at least. It’s an odd one because I’m a bit hot-headed and music seems to bring that out in spades, I hear something and it’s either live or hate. My biggest mistake has been using direct AB comparisons. For me it’s often led to the loudest, ballsiest item “winning”, when that only works for certain music. I’ve been wrong lots of times, I’ve ignored advice, especially Dave’s and I’ve been a bit of a tit at times.
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