|
Post by Westie on Apr 10, 2021 12:14:02 GMT
K9 is worse than a 1042. I’d never argue otherwise. K18 I’d take over a 1042 but still not good enough. You’re also right in that all MMs I’ve heard are below a minimum standard for me. Still curious as to whether any MM would make the grade. The thing is, the 1042 is still miles adrift form a good MC in terms of clarity, separation and high and low end. It has a very highly regarded stylus profile so I’m guessing it can’t be far off the best MMs can offfer. I’d still like to hear a top AT MM though to be sure.
|
|
|
Post by Westie on Apr 10, 2021 12:24:44 GMT
One thing that has really puzzled me is pricing. The 1040 was under £100 in 1987. The OC9 was nearly £400 when it launched. It was seen as a bargain even then. Today a 1042 is more expensive than two of the OC9 models and was on a par with the MLII price wise. Even the AT-F5 blew away a 1040 and 1042 as well as the crappy Eroica. The OC9 was indeed worth 4x the price and was recognised as such.
Today the Goldrings are abysmal value for money, given that I didn’t think their sound was good value back in the 80s.
So what’s changed? Not the sound. So to me it has to be dealers and mags pushing overpriced crap and buyers being too gullible to see it. Same applies to things like the Akito which is dearer than an Ekos was when launched. And yet the OC9 is better today and still the same price as 30+ years ago.
Goldring aren’t alone. Just look at Ortofon and Dynavector. The latest incarnations of models the OC9 beat back in the day are north of £1k, some well north....and people pay it, thinking the OC9 is “mid-price” and therefore beneath the rip-off models. They miss the fact that the only reason the price is higher on the others is because one has remained static in price whilst the others have quadrupled.
I have to agree with Andre in that I regard most audiophiles as stupid and most dealers as rogues.
|
|
|
Post by No.6 on Apr 10, 2021 12:56:36 GMT
The manager of the dealers I worked at used to like the 1042 on a Rega 3. He also used to like the profit. The other guy and I both thought it sucked. It never worked properly in a Rock or Xerxes with RB300 either, to my ears. I just think it’s a case of personal taste. The manager and I were listening to the same setup and heard opposing things. The other guy and I tended to hate all the stuff he liked. Nobody was right, but we were all right in terms of what we liked, Its true, thats pretty much why Hi-Forum & such aint worth the time & energy. The amount of stuff i see in the past that people champion i literally spit my tea out reading as ive heard & though were crap. I however can see thru the industry & the tricks that are played like crystal. People are also very gullable & easily influenced. Ever since the Technics DJ deck fad ive started using the term Sheep cos that is precisly what many Audiophiles are hence the sharing one brain cell between them. They just never ever learn with antics, however its their choice & money I just wish people would be their own mind, only explination is they dont really know anything about Hi-Fi & how reproduction of music in the home should sound like.. Taking advice from conditioned 80's Enthusiasts is like the worse mistake you could ever do. One wish is that Hi-Fi as we know it will soon be dead, it will in turn, hopefully clear out all the riff raff from the past, the danger is the influence the old hat have on the new.
|
|
|
Post by classicrock on Apr 10, 2021 13:09:50 GMT
One thing that has really puzzled me is pricing. The 1040 was under £100 in 1987. The OC9 was nearly £400 when it launched. It was seen as a bargain even then. Today a 1042 is more expensive than two of the OC9 models and was on a par with the MLII price wise. Even the AT-F5 blew away a 1040 and 1042 as well as the crappy Eroica. The OC9 was indeed worth 4x the price and was recognised as such. Today the Goldrings are abysmal value for money, given that I didn’t think their sound was good value back in the 80s. So what’s changed? Not the sound. So to me it has to be dealers and mags pushing overpriced crap and buyers being too gullible to see it. Same applies to things like the Akito which is dearer than an Ekos was when launched. And yet the OC9 is better today and still the same price as 30+ years ago. Goldring aren’t alone. Just look at Ortofon and Dynavector. The latest incarnations of models the OC9 beat back in the day are north of £1k, some well north....and people pay it, thinking the OC9 is “mid-price” and therefore beneath the rip-off models. They miss the fact that the only reason the price is higher on the others is because one has remained static in price whilst the others have quadrupled. I have to agree with Andre in that I regard most audiophiles as stupid and most dealers as rogues. The OC9 went down in price and then went up. Bought an MLII for £210 about 12 years ago and the latest ML version is £480 or more. I know they were £300 + years before. Quite a price hike but other brands went up more.
|
|
|
Post by No.6 on Apr 10, 2021 13:18:55 GMT
Westie: Your never gonna get value for money with a British Product anyway, they are not mass produced & labour cost plus middle men hike the prices. I wish Dealers would take a fuck off tablet tbh. Only thing i agreed with with Rich Dunn.
I personally think a lot of modern cartridegs are crap value for money. Why not buy a good old classic & have a high end tIp fitted? Audio Technica 'AT95' was a good old buget cartridge that sounded better than a lot of higher price cartridges back in the day. You can buy a superb '95P' Paratrace styli now for it that brings it into another world. The Paratrace can be fitted to other styli hence i mentioned to classic about re tipping the Van Den Hull profile styli from a '920' cartridge.
So the likes of a Linn 'K5', K9' possibly 'K18' you mentioned can sound good these days with a '95P'
|
|
|
Post by dsjr on Apr 10, 2021 13:23:03 GMT
I’d still like to hear a top AT MM though to be sure. So would I
Amazing how different the 540 and 740 seem to be, as the only 'difference' seems to be the metal mounting of the 740. I used to like the K9 in a K5 plastic mount body (the last ones came like this) as this combination was 'sweeter' I thought.
I used to like the short lived OC30 as it sounded like an early OC9 but with balls... I obviously don't know the current OC9's which you claim are better and I certainly wouldn't argue with that but would be nice to try one if the price wasn't silly.
I wonder if you could just about live with the basic bonded elliptical OC9 at £229 or so or might it be a little too 'dirty' for either of us (I like ML's and Shibata's accepting they need more care in setup).
Mind you, I have a mint diamond Koetsu Black here with a dead channel (broken coil wire which was trapped under the bottom metal trim and fractured). It'd cost three hundred at least I suspect to repair but it was a hell of a cartridge and without the clothy syrup of the Red and original Onyx I compared it to. Loved the sound of that one and it didn't seem to feed much into the arm it was fitted to - neither does my Ortofon MC30 Super I get out occasionally, which hated a mid 80's LP12 'cos of the bass
P.S. It's become obvious this site in general has little to no time for Rega SO - what about the Technics SL1500C at £899. treat it like a Rega - lid off when playing and carefully sited - would THAT satisfy any of you lot without breaking the bank? OK, no arm height adjustment on the fly but that's never been an issue for the likes of us...
Bloody hell - 2M Red bundled with it (so a grand or so with 2M bronze stylus and does it have line outs as well for that price as well as auto-lift at side end?
|
|
|
Post by classicrock on Apr 10, 2021 13:29:39 GMT
Westie: Your never gonna get value for money with a British Product anyway, they are not mass produced & labour cost plus middle men hike the prices. I wish Dealers would take a fuck off tablet tbh. Only thing i agreed with with Rich Dunn. I personally think a lot of modern cartridegs are crap value for money. Why not buy a good old classic & have a high end tIp fitted? Audio Technica 'AT95' was a good old buget cartridge that sounded better than a lot of higher price cartridges back in the day. You can buy a superb '95P' Paratrace styli now for it that brings it into another world. The Paratrace can be fitted to other styli hence i mentioned to classic about re tipping the Van Den Hull profile styli from a '920' cartridge. So the likes of a Linn 'K5', K9' possibly 'K18' you mentioned can sound good these days with a '95P' The new 95SH bears no relation in sound to the previous AT95E model. Would be surprised if adding a paratrace stylus would be better. 95SH and SL can be bought online for £140 to £170. I think they run many MC cartridges pretty close and some might even prefer them.
|
|
|
Post by Westie on Apr 10, 2021 13:35:44 GMT
I’d still like to hear a top AT MM though to be sure. So would I Amazing how different the 540 and 740 seem to be, as the only 'difference' seems to be the metal mounting of the 740. I used to like the K9 in a K5 plastic mount body (the last ones came like this) as this combination was 'sweeter' I thought.
I used to like the short lived OC30 as it sounded like an early OC9 but with balls... I obviously don't know the current OC9's which you claim are better and I certainly wouldn't argue with that but would be nice to try one if the price wasn't silly.
I wonder if you could just about live with the basic bonded elliptical OC9 at £229 or so or might it be a little too 'dirty' for either of us (I like ML's and Shibata's accepting they need more care in setup). Mind you, I have a mint diamond Koetsu Black here with a dead channel (broken coil wire which was trapped under the bottom metal trim and fractured). It'd cost three hundred at least I suspect to repair but it was a hell of a cartridge and without the clothy syrup of the Red and original Onyx I compared it to. Loved the sound of that one and it didn't seem to feed much into the arm it was fitted to - neither does my Ortofon MC30 Super I get out occasionally, which hated a mid 80's LP12 'cos of the bass P.S. It's become obvious this site in general has little to no time for Rega SO - what about the Technics SL1500C at £899. treat it like a Rega - lid off when playing and carefully sited - would THAT satisfy any of you lot without breaking the bank? OK, no arm height adjustment on the fly but that's never been an issue for the likes of us...
Bloody hell - 2M Red bundled with it (so a grand or so with 2M bronze stylus and does it have line outs as well for that price as well as auto-lift at side end?
I have been living with it and it’s just about my minimum standard. I bought two. Very much like the old OC7. It was like clearing your sinuses when I changed over to the XML though. The XEB is still a stone cold bargain. I just sold one of my two on PFM and the other to a mate. Very happy with the XML. I’ll paste a video of a comparison with the MLII I’m honestly not anti-Rega. The old planar 2 and 3 were good decks at their price. I just have issues with their current QA and manufacturing standards, and can’t get past how much better the old 250 and 300 were with new rear end, cable and VTAF. I’d thoroughly recommend a tricked out RB300 at the price. I just can’t find any love for the stock item.
|
|
|
Post by Westie on Apr 10, 2021 13:40:27 GMT
Here’s the comparison. Not the best track, but I can clearly hear a preference. The second half of the track is the most revealing youtu.be/iaeS5aNkLmQ
|
|
|
Post by dsjr on Apr 10, 2021 14:13:11 GMT
Here’s the comparison. Not the best track, but I can clearly hear a preference. The second half of the track is the most revealing youtu.be/iaeS5aNkLmQNow you see, this is where I want to see measurements to confirm the differences in high frequencies as I can't trust my ears at all now. One sounds shiny, new and squeaky-clean where the other rather sounds a bit old and tired, despite both probably being brand new. Got so say I like sharper/crisper hf from a record as long as it's 'clean' as the XML certainly seems to be.
|
|
|
Post by No.6 on Apr 10, 2021 14:31:51 GMT
The original Planar has this distinctive warm midrange that used to irritate me. I did an A/B against an old AR 'EB101' it become very clear. more so
|
|
|
Post by No.6 on Apr 10, 2021 14:42:10 GMT
Here’s the comparison. Not the best track, but I can clearly hear a preference. The second half of the track is the most revealing youtu.be/iaeS5aNkLmQNow you see, this is where I want to see measurements to confirm the differences in high frequencies as I can't trust my ears at all now. One sounds shiny, new and squeaky-clean where the other rather sounds a bit old and tired, despite both probably being brand new. Got so say I like sharper/crisper hf from a record as long as it's 'clean' as the XML certainly seems to be. Why do you still need measurements because you can't trust your ears! You hear what you hear simple as that. That is pretty much the same minset as the signal needs to be flat for it to be right.
|
|
|
Post by Westie on Apr 10, 2021 14:58:01 GMT
I’d bet their frequency response curves will be near identical and will,probably differ as much from one individual sample to another as they will between models. I’m just glad you can hear differences. I can, even without headphones. I guess it helps to know exactly what an MLII sounds like, in the flesh. The differences on the video are quite accurately borne out in reality, having ran an MLII earlier this year.
The XML has all the sparkle but with a bit more weight and bounce. Makes the MLII sound a bit cold in comparison. I’d normally take a cooler sounding cartridge over a warmer one because the latter iusually comes at the expense of clarity (e.g. Hana). Not this time though. There appears to be no downside, I do wish I’d tried the Shibata version when I had it though. Another opportunity missed through laziness.
|
|
|
Post by dsjr on Apr 10, 2021 16:11:32 GMT
If it's audible, I believe it's measurable. The difference in that vid was quite marked but who knows until it's verified exactly what's going on? I certainly liked the XML I have to say and it reminds me of the very old Stilton OC9 I have stored away,which is now in need of a retip. Andr'e, I'm really glad if you trust your ears implicitly still, but for the last twenty odd years, what I heard or thought I heard changed from day to day depending on how clogged up mine were and any findings or thoughts on 'new 'gear was formed after a few listens at different times and always with a reference to something I knew once i discovered what was happening. I now have something more serious happening in the bad one now since last Easter and the surgery don't want to know apart from talking about hearing aids and sending me for another hearing test which again, terrifies me as the last one some years back did. If it's more than just being perpetually clogged in the inner ear I'm fooked frankly as there's no proper cure for it apart from a hearing-risky operation and yawning to make it 'click' isn't enough. This time it's bass rather than highs and badly audible on headphones (not the headphones by the way). So that's why I value measurements because I can't trust what I hear to be accurate.
|
|
|
Post by No.6 on Apr 10, 2021 19:25:03 GMT
Westie: One of my all time fav cartridges was the Pickering 'XLZ-7500S' with the matching PLZ pre amp. Low output MM Cart.. His has a wooden box, mine was a maroon velvet box likeone of those posh boxes you get womens necklaces in, like those in the background
AKG 'P8ES Super Nova was a good MM too.
|
|