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Post by Westie on Feb 11, 2022 9:42:32 GMT
I’m not sure why, but I find low powered amps have an attraction to their sound that bigger amps can’t match.
Sure, I get that the bigger amps can sound more like real live music at live music levels. I do like that aspect, but I wouldn’t want it all the time. Lots of music is simply more engaging at lower levels, plus it’s less fatiguing over longer sessions. And it’s better for your ears.
A big amp just doesn’t seem to like being used when idling. It seems to want and need that chance to stretch its legs and flex its muscles. It’s a bit like a Ferrari being impractical for the weekly shop, but being perfect for tearing up the road.
Smaller amps just seem to have a presence about them that I love. They sound alive in a different way to bigger amps. Ultimately I come away with a different feeling when I’ve listened to the best lower powered amps. Surely that’s what listening to music is all about: How it makes you feel.
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Post by dsjr on Feb 11, 2022 12:30:37 GMT
Not sure there are absolutes here westie, but I've heard what you mean and put it down to the best smaller amps compressing dynamics nicely and making the sound more musical and 'wholesome.*' The better big amps I've heard just seem to me to let the music swell effortlessly and I love that 'unburstable' aspect...
* For me if nobody else, the collectable Naim Nait mk1 was a splendid effects box, compressing progressively as the volume went up. The lack of deep bass on the phono stage hid its modest capabilities too I remember.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2022 10:49:02 GMT
I dont give a crap what people say Low power amps are far better.
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Post by classicrock on Feb 14, 2022 11:43:26 GMT
It all depends. They certainly won't sound better with inefficient speakers. Also I think many better vintage amps sounded more powerful than their rating. Good example was the Sansui AU101 I stupidly changed for a more powerful Rotel (which sounded weedier). I think components and quality and size of power supplies have something to do with it. I don't think you can compare 20W valve power with 100W solid state and draw any conclusions. There is certainly something about the grip, control and ease a very powerful amp has with speakers of average to lower sensitivity. Another factor is an amps ability to drive 4 ohm loads, doubling power over 8 ohm load is a useful spec to look for.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2022 11:55:37 GMT
The amp i use is rated at Japanese 13 Watt, I cant even dial the volume in past 10 oclock without it being too loud. Speakers are about 89dB. Sounds superb & ill never ever let it go now cos im that happy with it. That mid 70's 'AU-101' was a great sounding amp. They still sell for peanuts. Far better than the bigger SANSUI of that period but as always the show off need to but them.
Ineficient Hard to drive speakers need dropping in the nearest canal weighed down with their silly big power amps.
My Mantra when i was into Hi-Fi was Low Mass tone arms/High Compliance cartridges.. Low power amps/High Efficiency Loudspeakers.
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Post by Westie on Feb 14, 2022 15:00:57 GMT
I’d always start with asking folk about room size, listening distance, listening level, music tastes and speaker sensitivity. Most folk seem to listen below 80db at short distance. No need for a powerful amp in those circumstances and the drawbacks outweigh the benefits in those instances, I feel.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2022 15:40:51 GMT
I'm slowly starting to dislike low efficiency hard to drive speakers. I've heard some samples of 2w decware amps driving easy speakers. Sounds open and musical. So maybe my future system will be low wattage amp /easy to drive speakers. S.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2022 16:08:33 GMT
High Efficiency Speakers are the only speakers ive liked in the past, Why is that then LOL..
Forget all the Hi-Fi bull shit about impedance dips & all that cobblers & just remember a 90db speakers will produce 90db of sound for just one watt for one meter, How much power does a standard British house need eh?
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Post by dsjr on Feb 14, 2022 18:58:21 GMT
Andr'e, surely you know by now that the position of the volume control has absolutely NO bearing on the power being used.. It'll be nine o'clock for a modern source with up to 2V output and you'll whack it round to twelve to two o'clock for a vintage tuner which maxes at half a Volt or less... You're not altogether right about a 90dB speaker either. What frequency do you measure the 80dB at? Those Klipsch cheapo things do at several kHz but in the midrange it's more realistic at 85 or so I gather, as the tweeter is set 5dB or so up on the bass driver, which is a bit 'wild' itself. NO cheap speaker and many expensive audiophile passive models have anything approaching a flat response in a room or otherwise so the efficiency can vary by several dB depending on what frequency you test at. The other thing is that most cheap boxes today are 4 ohm models and killers of many cheap AV receivers which are still popular in the US. That's one way to get the efficiency, by forcing more power out of the amp. Apparently, speakers rated at 4 ohms don't sell in the large important US market, so the speaker makers bend the truth or outright lie, because many cheap AV receivers can't drive 4 ohms... It's a minefield out there when you look beyond old 1970's worn out vintage stuff. By all means stay in the past as I'm forced to with my old gear (my amps are early 70's with one power amp currently in use from the late 80's). I don't deny that things have genuinely moved on though, but I'm prepared to accept basic boxes where some here aren't... I wish some of you could try Genelec and Neumann's smaller models. It may bring about an epiphany of sorts for smaller rooms and not silly-high volume levels. I desperately need to as ATC's and the 'BBC Derived Cohort Brands' are so damned expensive now to fuel a status and cachet laden far eastern market. In themeantime, I'll continue with my ~100WPC amps and regard them as 'adequate' in terms of power and totally transparent to the different recordings and radio broadcasts I play through them, rather than making everything sound the same
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Post by Westie on Feb 14, 2022 19:17:42 GMT
Andr'e, surely you know by now that the position of the volume control has absolutely NO bearing on the power being used.. It'll be nine o'clock for a modern source with up to 2V output and you'll whack it round to twelve to two o'clock for a vintage tuner which maxes at half a Volt or less... You're not altogether right about a 90dB speaker either. What frequency do you measure the 80dB at? Those Klipsch cheapo things do at several kHz but in the midrange it's more realistic at 85 or so I gather, as the tweeter is set 5dB or so up on the bass driver, which is a bit 'wild' itself. NO cheap speaker and many expensive audiophile passive models have anything approaching a flat response in a room or otherwise so the efficiency can vary by several dB depending on what frequency you test at. The other thing is that most cheap boxes today are 4 ohm models and killers of many cheap AV receivers which are still popular in the US. That's one way to get the efficiency, by forcing more power out of the amp. Apparently, speakers rated at 4 ohms don't sell in the large important US market, so the speaker makers bend the truth or outright lie, because many cheap AV receivers can't drive 4 ohms... It's a minefield out there when you look beyond old 1970's worn out vintage stuff. By all means stay in the past as I'm forced to with my old gear (my amps are early 70's with one power amp currently in use from the late 80's). I don't deny that things have genuinely moved on though, but I'm prepared to accept basic boxes where some here aren't... I wish some of you could try Genelec and Neumann's smaller models. It may bring about an epiphany of sorts for smaller rooms and not silly-high volume levels. I desperately need to as ATC's and the 'BBC Derived Cohort Brands' are so damned expensive now to fuel a status and cachet laden far eastern market. In themeantime, I'll continue with my ~100WPC amps and regard them as 'adequate' in terms of power and totally transparent to the different recordings and radio broadcasts I play through them, rather than making everything sound the same Did you have a specific Genelec in mind, Dave? I must admit to knowing nothing about them. I’m pretty set on another pair of De Capos but it’s always good to learn.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2022 20:23:38 GMT
Andr'e, surely you know by now that the position of the volume control has absolutely NO bearing on the power being used.. It'll be nine o'clock for a modern source with up to 2V output and you'll whack it round to twelve to two o'clock for a vintage tuner which maxes at half a Volt or less... You're not altogether right about a 90dB speaker either. What frequency do you measure the 80dB at? Those Klipsch cheapo things do at several kHz but in the midrange it's more realistic at 85 or so I gather, as the tweeter is set 5dB or so up on the bass driver, which is a bit 'wild' itself. NO cheap speaker and many expensive audiophile passive models have anything approaching a flat response in a room or otherwise so the efficiency can vary by several dB depending on what frequency you test at. The other thing is that most cheap boxes today are 4 ohm models and killers of many cheap AV receivers which are still popular in the US. That's one way to get the efficiency, by forcing more power out of the amp. Apparently, speakers rated at 4 ohms don't sell in the large important US market, so the speaker makers bend the truth or outright lie, because many cheap AV receivers can't drive 4 ohms... It's a minefield out there when you look beyond old 1970's worn out vintage stuff. By all means stay in the past as I'm forced to with my old gear (my amps are early 70's with one power amp currently in use from the late 80's). I don't deny that things have genuinely moved on though, but I'm prepared to accept basic boxes where some here aren't... I wish some of you could try Genelec and Neumann's smaller models. It may bring about an epiphany of sorts for smaller rooms and not silly-high volume levels. I desperately need to as ATC's and the 'BBC Derived Cohort Brands' are so damned expensive now to fuel a status and cachet laden far eastern market. In themeantime, I'll continue with my ~100WPC amps and regard them as 'adequate' in terms of power and totally transparent to the different recordings and radio broadcasts I play through them, rather than making everything sound the same Im reffering to the loudness off the speakers in a small living room that the majority of humans have in the uk. Worn out 1970's Vintage stuff! LOL Best i keep out of this cos to me specialist Hi-Fi is not more than mindless bollox
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Post by dsjr on Feb 15, 2022 9:13:31 GMT
I'm wondering what 'specialist HiFi' is nowadays myself... My local audio 'salon' has Naim, Chord Electronics, some Linn, Kudos speakers, PMC, Accuphase which makes them go all gooey-eyed and I look at it now with disbelief when a Benchmark power amp for a 'mere' three grand totally out-performs the lot of it, max power excepted (it's 'only' a hundred odd Watts a side..) The Naim Statement amp they have (and sell too!!!) is still a Naim and a bit too 'shouty' into some speakers I heard it drive and Kudos used to proudly claim that they never measure their speaker designs - it shows too in my opinion but their well of freshly retired client base with bulging pension pots lap it up as they climb the never ending and more difficult to escape upgrade ladder. they were actually surpised my a 'Special Edition' ATC costing only thirty grand that 'sounded' so good in their smaller dem room - all of this a different planet from the one I'm exiled on. I own and use 1970's gear, so yeah, I'm entitled to call it old and worn out, 'cos it is really The fact that *some* of it was so well conceived and made with the best components possible back then is a wonderful thing, but the stuff IS nearly fifty years old and allowances do need to be made I feel as controls do go noisy and some critical solder joints may be getting dry in some amps such as the much respected Sony V-FETs from the mid 70's which self destruct (possibly terminally as the output transistors can't easily be got), taking the speakers with them all because of a few critical solder joints around some diodes failing apparently - happened to an old pal of mine. Westie, it seems most Genelecs for example, seem to give consistent top performance in the conventional ways, the choice is on listening distance and whether you want or need the DSP options. I'm confused rather by the numbering systems they use and prices hold really well (not sure if they turn up used very often). Now that my beloved ATC actives are such silly-high money for me now, the Neumann (formerly K&H) range looks interesting but again, your choice may well be the size to fit the room and listening distance rather than which one sounds 'nicest' - (I'm dropping myself in a VERY deep hole here, but hope you may broadly understand). I suspect that if they're anything like the ATC's were, any of them would out-perform typical domestic stuff today and the adjustments on the back of most active pro monitors enable bass and top tuning to better fit the room. As for getting a dem of such speakers, it's really a case of ordering online and returning if they don't suit (Genelecs have a massive waiting list I gather..). A sound engineer on ASR still likes to mix on ATC's as completed mixes 'translate' to other speakers well. he finds that typical Genelecs only allow half a mix to be done as they tend to flatter slightly, which I'd say is actually a bonus for domestic listening!!! having said that, Steve Wilson has, to me anyway, done some great mastering of favourite music (as well as making some fascinating Porcupine Tree music with the band) and pics that Robert Fripp posted on his blog when SW was doing work for him, shows he uses or used smaller Genelecs with a sub and they worked brilliantly for him. I'm trying to look ahead to when we move (oh we are, but no idea when currently) and it'll probably be to a smaller more 'efficient' home. My age too is making me look to the future and although I hope it's premature, I don't want wife and son left with piles of audio shit to clear up/dump in times to come.
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Post by Westie on Feb 15, 2022 10:03:00 GMT
I thought you’d never move! Gosh, that’s a huge opportunity to have a clear-out and a fresh start. You will need to embrace it sooner rather than later though. Take it from one who has way more experience than is good for anyone: Moving house changes everything about the sound you will hear. Nothing ever sounds remotely the same.
That’s why I’ve cleared stuff out so many times. Nowadays I just keep what I’m attracted to visually or attached to emotionally. It’s as good a way as any.
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Post by dsjr on Feb 15, 2022 11:56:18 GMT
I'll come round to your way eventually - I'll have to!!!
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2022 13:05:47 GMT
I own and use 1970's gear, so yeah, I'm entitled to call it old and worn out, 'cos it is really The fact that *some* of it was so well conceived and made with the best components possible back then is a wonderful thing, but the stuff IS nearly fifty years old and allowances do need to be made I feel as controls do go noisy and some critical solder joints may be getting dry in some amps such as the much respected Sony V-FETs from the mid 70's which self destruct (possibly terminally as the output transistors can't easily be got), taking the speakers with them all because of a few critical solder joints around some diodes failing apparently - happened to an old pal of mine. Thing is i totally rebuild old gear so its basically nearly new LOL. Thus will live me out.
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