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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2022 20:01:28 GMT
Old men with knackered ears hammering out their ingrained views on sound quality. Like Phil Ochs sung: "And they argue through the night Black is black and white is white Walk away both knowing they are right" I don't know should I cry or laugh. So then Baggs your view? |
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Post by dsjr on Jul 8, 2022 6:10:01 GMT
My question is why do you then play with Record players if CD is so superior? If i truly believe something was better id drop the other in the nearest canal, Old time sake or not. If CD was better dont you think id just use all the files i have from CD's i use for convenience playback when im using the laptop? Dont you think id want to save myself the constant nightmare or fucking about with old clunkers? I 'play with record players' (not currently, 'cos we have more important stuff going on) because it gives me something to do and eventually earn some pennies on when selling on. The decks I 'play with' would be laughed out of any audiophool court (little do they know) but there ya go 
If your laptop has all your digital album files on it, just get a Apple USB C dongle with USB A adaptor (tenner tops for both), an Amazon Basics 3.5mm to RCA cable and see what that fifty year old amp can do with it into the Aux input as the output is only around 1V used as a line device.
You may be surprised if you turn your emotions off for a minute (I know, I find that difficult to do as well). I use VLC mostly (sometimes Foobar) 'cos I'm a bloody cheapskate and also and better for me, the Chromebook I was given to stream to a Chromecast Audio (and the audio output on that isn't too good in terms of ASR's tribal SINAD ratings). Sounds great on streaming radio.
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Post by Westie on Jul 8, 2022 6:56:19 GMT
I think this sums up our differences. I fully believe that perception of music has to involve emotional response. In fact I’d say it paramount. You can’t turn it off and you shouldn’t try to. Our senses are extremely sophisticated and complex. I believe we are massively more sensitive than any measuring equipment and if our sub-conscious tells us something, we should listen and take heed.
Please understand I’m not saying you are wrong and I’m right. That’s never how I’d think. To me you can never be wrong about your own perception, tastes and preferences. You are the king of your own world. If anyone is happy with their choices then that’s all that matters.
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Post by classicrock on Jul 8, 2022 8:37:05 GMT
I don't have an issue with people who want digital for convenience and for a lot of listening it is good enough. It's a lot to do with context. Near field at a computer or portable listening is a different thing than serious listening to a full separates system. I was always happy listening to cassettes in the car but vinyl on decent TT at home. My main issue with some digifiles is coming on forums to tell everyone vinyl is crap and digital measures better. You get it on every vinyl or turntable thread on Hoffman forum. These people will never accept vinyl records can sound extremely good and probably never heard a decent playback system.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2022 10:07:53 GMT
My question is why do you then play with Record players if CD is so superior? If i truly believe something was better id drop the other in the nearest canal, Old time sake or not. If CD was better dont you think id just use all the files i have from CD's i use for convenience playback when im using the laptop? Dont you think id want to save myself the constant nightmare or fucking about with old clunkers? I 'play with record players' (not currently, 'cos we have more important stuff going on) because it gives me something to do and eventually earn some pennies on when selling on. The decks I 'play with' would be laughed out of any audiophool court (little do they know) but there ya go
If your laptop has all your digital album files on it, just get a Apple USB C dongle with USB A adaptor (tenner tops for both), an Amazon Basics 3.5mm to RCA cable and see what that fifty year old amp can do with it into the Aux input as the output is only around 1V used as a line device.
You may be surprised if you turn your emotions off for a minute (I know, I find that difficult to do as well). I use VLC mostly (sometimes Foobar) 'cos I'm a bloody cheapskate and also and better for me, the Chromebook I was given to stream to a Chromecast Audio (and the audio output on that isn't too good in terms of ASR's tribal SINAD ratings). Sounds great on streaming radio.
Ive absolutely no intentions in buying anything dongle wise, like i say its convenience when im on the laptop with headphones. I have VLC on my phone cos a copy of the SD card in my laptop is also in my phone. It all convenience that i do not take seriously in any way at all. |
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Post by dsjr on Jul 8, 2022 13:19:54 GMT
Ok. Best I shut the eff up in a minute and let you enjoy what you enjoy.
My laptop doesn't have as good a headphone output as the old Apple phone my son gave me (which is now obsolete as many apps such as banking and even store apps can't/won't run on it - I rarely use it for calls). I bought the Apple USB-C dac/dongle for £7 from Ao and an Amazon or eBay (I forget) £2 or so adaptor to plug it into a spare USB2 socket. As a headphone thingie, the Euro version isn't hugely 'loud,' but I preferred the 'sound' as I find it clearer and slightly less dirty (bass seemed a bit better too but that's subjective). I'm so enamoured with the thing, I hopefully have a higher output US spec one coming this summer. The 1V output when used as a line source is perfect for vintage amps' gain, so that's why I mention it.
The entire streaming/music thing came to me via the back door really. My Arcam tuner has an AM facility but I don't have a T thing attached at the rear (most tuners are crap on AM anyway). I can access BBC Sounds on my phone and laptops of course and Radio 5 takes on a whole different level of fidelity when streaming, as most BBC output does. The old Thunderboxes were designed from the outset to give good speech reproduction and now my aided hearing is so much better if never again to my youth acuity, I'm appreciating what they can do now.
Anyway, the best tenner I spent on my listening pleasure in a very very long time.
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Post by Westie on Jul 9, 2022 8:55:08 GMT
Apple stuff does tend to sound good. The only time I had cause for complaint was when I bought a second iPod. I had a gen 5 classic style one and bought a 6. The sound had taken a real dive and the max output had dropped by about a third.
I have a couple of iPad Pros and they have great sound. I could easily live with all my music on one.
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Post by dsjr on Jul 9, 2022 10:50:21 GMT
I agree THE MUSIC is what gives the emotional response, but why the gear and the religion of vinyl playback in particular (i could add glowing valves as well). I've been to concerts at decent enough venues in my past life (RAH and Festival Hall) where the performances have ranged from absolutely awful (Maazel 'doing' a Mahler symphony, waving his arms around like windmills and stamping on the podium) to a sublime performance of the lengthy Mahler 6 (Abbado) where time seemed to stand still it was such a wonderful and beautiful interpretation - I also remember a fantastic King Crimson concert in the Thrak! days at the RAH in 1994 and with a little bit of bass eq on the ATC's and turning it up to neighbour-bashing levels, I mimicked the drums on B'Boom incredibly well with eyes shut.. I'm afraid I've long gone past the need for the *gear* to add its flavour to make the music nice and sexy all the time - I had that just a few years ago where everything sounded much the same, but lovely with it, with broad 'poster paint colours' as forum pal Macca suggests. The speakers are what should singly 'flavour' the tone and they as a breed are bad enough in their various ways - I don't want the gear or source to add more, thanks. Anyway, no win here and my aided hearing makes 'everything' sound OK now, so hopefully I can enjoy records again, which were sounding so bland and muffled in recent times. (I had to do an emergency shop earlier and didn't put me 'ears' in - bloody hell everything sounded so muffled).
P.S. The Amazon Basics RCA cables are really good as interconnects from a digital source - just sayin' and they're bloody cheap too..
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Post by Westie on Jul 9, 2022 13:41:13 GMT
I may be wrong, but I’m sure Andre has recommended those Amazon cables before too.
I’m glad your hearing is now at a point where you can enjoy your system again. We can sometimes forget that this is the first thing we need to enjoy hifi.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2022 15:00:48 GMT
I agree THE MUSIC is what gives the emotional response, but why the gear and the religion of vinyl playback in particular (i could add glowing valves as well). I've been to concerts at decent enough venues in my past life (RAH and Festival Hall) where the performances have ranged from absolutely awful (Maazel 'doing' a Mahler symphony, waving his arms around like windmills and stamping on the podium) to a sublime performance of the lengthy Mahler 6 (Abbado) where time seemed to stand still it was such a wonderful and beautiful interpretation - I also remember a fantastic King Crimson concert in the Thrak! days at the RAH in 1994 and with a little bit of bass eq on the ATC's and turning it up to neighbour-bashing levels, I mimicked the drums on B'Boom incredibly well with eyes shut.. I'm afraid I've long gone past the need for the *gear* to add its flavour to make the music nice and sexy all the time - I had that just a few years ago where everything sounded much the same, but lovely with it, with broad 'poster paint colours' as forum pal Macca suggests. The speakers are what should singly 'flavour' the tone and they as a breed are bad enough in their various ways - I don't want the gear or source to add more, thanks. Anyway, no win here and my aided hearing makes 'everything' sound OK now, so hopefully I can enjoy records again, which were sounding so bland and muffled in recent times. (I had to do an emergency shop earlier and didn't put me 'ears' in - bloody hell everything sounded so muffled).
P.S. The Amazon Basics RCA cables are really good as interconnects from a digital source - just sayin' and they're bloody cheap too..
Probably the reason i would drive an Aston Martin 'DB-6' over a fancy new ferrari. Its basically about my need music from the era (1969-1972) which has a certain sound signature that the imitation (Digital) kills, doesnt sound right + the whole ownership of old equipment & old ways would out the window, remember i live in the past. What you may think sounds better digitised totally doesnt with me. btw: I was the one that told you about the Amazon Basics interconnect  |
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Post by dsjr on Jul 9, 2022 15:18:56 GMT
Yes, but no harm in reminding you and telling others Digital dubs of analogue sources AREN'T 'imitation' at all - transferred right they're IDENTICAL - so there!!! I ain't saying any more 'cos you won't accept it, but if the sound doesn't involve, check what the speakers are doing and that the amp isn't clipping or doing other nasty things with an increased hf dynamics. Speakers lacking bass and with spiky tweeters are a classic with people not liking digital much... A system that can 'breathe' a bit has no issues at all with any digital source and my reference system in my former life played records well too, albeit with a shrunken soundstage and dynamics (and that was with a bloody Decca!!!!!). I've said too much and don't want to go further down this path as I'm a voice alone who can't demonstrate what he's saying. If records do it for you over digital, carry on while I get me coat in this thread  |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2022 15:24:38 GMT
Digitised 70's album is a sampled imitation of an analogue signal, its fact. no need for demonstration or to bring hi-fi into it they cannot be identical, how can they?
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Post by classicrock on Jul 9, 2022 22:32:46 GMT
Digital changes the sound. A vast difference between a properly mastered analog recording on LP and a digital knock off. It's quite a different sound. How can digital be accurate when sound differences between chip designs can clearly be heard.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2022 11:18:17 GMT
Digital changes the sound. A vast difference between a properly mastered analog recording on LP and a digital knock off. It's quite a different sound. How can digital be accurate when sound differences between chip designs can clearly be heard. Not only that, its impossible for them to be the same. Analogue uses continuos sine waves, Digital is non continous, use Square Wave pulses. I have 1st issues & re-issues of the same LP's. Even though the Re-issues are brighter & cleaner, the 1st issue sounds much better. This is typical of a more accurate Digitally manipulated signal. Its the same with vintage Hi-Fi that has Distortion figures that do not meet todays ideal figures. The more distorted amplifier will sound better to me. This is my whole argument Digital takes away everything that sounds good to my ears. But to say the Analogue & Digital signals sound the same its total & utter shit. |
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Post by dsjr on Jul 10, 2022 12:23:21 GMT
Digital changes the sound. A vast difference between a properly mastered analog recording on LP and a digital knock off. It's quite a different sound. How can digital be accurate when sound differences between chip designs can clearly be heard. NO NO NO!!!!!
You're coming at it from the wrong end totally, sorry!
You simply CANNOT EVER compare the master or digital dub to a vinyl end product as the vinyl will ALWAYS sound different, ALWAYS! And always with copious distortion and hf dynamics issues (vinyl is elastic and loses hf transients by its elastic nature, smoothing off the edges). many speakers still can't handle it and there used to be some nasssssty tweeters about as well as bad speaker crossovers and bass mid drivers taking off at crossover which vinyl and some amps can mask.
Chip design differences - are you sure as this is a 1980's argument really - and have you done it blind with no other senses involved except your ears? I have and the differences unsighted magically disappear, EVERY TIME!!!!! if the dacs are properly designed and not audiophool-hobbled in some way. Modern dacs are a done sorted deal, no matter how much they cost and the nos confections add loads of distortion and hf roll-off which is why some like them. The ignorance and suspicion that lay people have towards digital is mind-blowing, but if you've directly heard a master recording and its digital copy, you'll know. Sadly, audiophiles want to believe differently in ignorance, and again, I've come over all preachy only because I've done the bloody comparisons so peeps like you don't have to 
Please excuse the shouting, but I don't think any of you realise how ALL our senses are involved in subjective testing of audio gear. That's why audiophiles wet themselves over good looking expensive gear (or cars/bikes and whatever). Take the eyes out of the choice, level match to close tolerances and the differences 'magically' disappear if the performance betters a certain level as most dacs do these days, even very cheap ones by Schiit and Topping amongst others - but of course subjectivists find all manner of excuses for why this happens, totally denying the truth. I've done A-B sighted comparisons where I've forgotten which is which and as soon as I didn't know which was which, the differences stopped being heard/imagined.
I'm happy with red book digital as I know that any differences from the master are mastering-engineer decisions. Going to higher res enables inaudible editing and so on at the mastering house and again, blind music samples done at different 'resolutions' sound identical unless you know which is which (same with the useless Chord M-Scaler review where the thing actually made it worse technically but no difference sonically - if the levels were matched - the dem I had didn't sound at the same level!). The gear I have has been in use for years and it was my now my bad hearing that made me unhappy these last few years, not the bloody gear. Just think, some of you would have slung it all out, changed it several times and still wouldn't find a cure for the bad telly sound and muffled HiFi sounds - I was in denial until basically frog-marched to a hearing test by wife and son back in March - bloody glad I did though!!!
That's enough now. I keep repeating myself but to people who know what they know and believe they're right. If you think vinyl is right, then everything else really is wrong. I felt like that about Naim for a year or three in the early 80s, as nothing else sounded like a Naim CB amp - turns out the CB Naims were wrong and cleverly tailored in their band limiting, poor hf stereo separation and odd order distortions all adding together and it wasn't until the 52 preamp came along that they started to come out of it at huge extra expense of course.
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